#16. Integrity, Courage and Being Fierce - Helen Guinness
“What you're committed to is what's going to show up in your life”
When we’re passionately connected to an idea, we’re called forth in a different way. That’s been the journey of International Transformation Coach Helen Guinness, who joins the podcast to talk about living with integrity, people pleasing, saying no, finding courage and being fierce. What are you committed to?
Listen to full episode :
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Helen Guinness has been a pioneer in the field of Personal Development and Coaching for over 40 years. Previous projects include Four by Four Consulting, Vision for Action and The Hunger Project UK. You can find Helen at her website helenguiness.com.
Helen previously shared her work with us on our website - read more here.
Interested in the topic of Integrity? We discussed this further in a previous podcast with Tom Goodwin - listen here.
Audio mix and edit by Hula & Co Music.
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Intro
Darius Norell
Welcome to this episode of What's Your Work? We have Helen Guinness on today. And a really powerful conversation. We went deep, very, very quickly, very quickly felt like we were instantly into some real depth, covering a range of topics: saying no, courage, being fierce. Wide ranging conversation and, as always, love to hear what you think of it. Enjoy.
Conversation
So I have with me today, Helen Guinness, welcome, Helen, great to have you on the podcast. Thank you. And I'm getting into the habit of starting by introducing my guests with some experience of them that I have. And we've known each other over the last year or so through a program we've been working on to help young unemployed people to work, which was Kickstart. So my experience is that and I, I'm actually where this has come to mind, this is gonna sound - well, I want to use the word and then we'll talk about it, which is fierce. In a really, I mean, in a positive sense of wanting the best, wanting to find out, being uncompromising, but yeah, just really committed to learning, distinguishing, clarifying, wanting to do well for the people that you work with. And so I wasn't expecting to use that word, but that's what came. So that's what I said, How was that? How does that fit?
Helen Guinness
That, that's fine, it's fine, I totally get your use of that word. I mean, the truth of the matter is that I can be quite fierce, when required, and my children would definitely verify that, but then when you started talking about clarity, and commitment, and so on, my top value is integrity. And also, my work is about walking my talk, as well as talking my walk. And my purpose is to support and encourage people to find their own integrity. So the kind of fierceness if you like, it's about challenging. It's about challenging people. It's about not letting people off the hook. It's about not indulging in the sense that it might be obstructive. So yeah, I mean, I can go with it anywhere. I'm quite comfortable with it.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Sounds like it sounds like a good fit. Yeah, in a positive sense, right. It's not a it's not a convicted thing. And it's not trying to intimidate, least that's not expensive at all. And it does, in my experience, take energy to be committed to something like it doesn't happen. Integrity doesn't happen by accident, and paying attention and really listening and wanting to support people. And that doesn't happen by accident. There's a there's a particular energy which which I don't know if this is the right word, but it's got a flavor of that, I think, which is what you're saying when I'm
Helen Guinness
Well, I think it's also a reflection of my past, to some extent. I mean, I loathe injustice, unfairness. Prejudice. I was born and brought up abroad. So I grew up in a number of different cultures. And in my younger days of Well, I was going to say, women's liberation, but but even before that, nuclear disarmament, anti apartheid, I was a campaigner. And I was a speaker, you know, I stood on a soapbox at Hyde Park corner, and I did all that stuff. So I think the fierceness comes from also kind of reflects that, in the sense that when I'm committed to something don't try shifting me.
Darius Norell
Yeah, not I love it. Because we're two minutes in and it already feels like more than an hour's worth of conversation to have you and just what you've covered there. So I'm already oh my gosh, where do we go next? Let's stay with this for a moment, because what I was also gonna say is this idea of you standing for something feels like that was an energy. And then you were talking about that where you literally stood for something and stood up and spoke for it. Tell us more about that experience. At A, as you said, when you were at a young age. Yeah. Tell us a bit more about that.
Helen Guinness
Well, I mean, my parents were both pacifists. And my grandmother was a campaigner. In her own way, I mean, she was decorated by the Lebanese Government for changing the labor laws, which meant then that young children were not used in factories, as factory workers. My grandfather was a conscientious objector. So you see, there is a bit of that spirit in the family. I, as as, as a pacifist, if you will, nuclear disarmament was absolutely logical thing for me to be protesting about and protesting for, I should say, more accurately, and equally anti apartheid. And that was part of my background. I mean, I grew up to some extent in Nigeria. So it didn't like blood, I suppose. You know, in that sense, it's in my, in my culture, it's in my, in my family DNA, I guess. And these are things I feel very strongly about. But slightly later on. In 1981, I encountered The Hunger Project, which is an international charity whose mission is to end hunger is an idea whose time has come. And though the project focuses on Grassroots Leadership Development, which is where I developed my skills in that field, but one of the things that we were asked to do as part of our, our training to become staff members and so on, was to go to Hyde Park corner, stand on a box and talk about the Hunger Project and our commitment to ending hunger. And so I followed in my grandmother's footsteps and did exactly that. And discovered that I really rather enjoyed it. I wasn't intimidated by it. So I mean, of course, you have nerves, you know, momentarily, but once I sort of got going and got into my stride, I rather enjoyed it. And I realized then that public speaking, you know, delivering programs as a consequence, and so on, was enormously appealing. And I felt I'd kind of landed my career at that point. Because prior to that, I'd done various other things, but nothing had ever really landed for me, you know?
Darius Norell
So it's almost almost a sort of Damascene moment of oh, my gosh, this this is, Oh, yeah. Somebody was expecting to be quite a fit, you were doing something that was meaningful, you know, you've committed to a cause. This was a piece of that journey of standing for that cause, what was it that was exciting for you or that you loved about that? Standing.
Helen Guinness
Two things I found, I found that believing in believing something as intensely as I did, actually called me forth in a different way. So if you like, I disappeared, my ego got pushed out of the way and I was able to speak from my heart. And I was able to inspire people. And when I saw that I was able to inspire people and enroll people. Then that was when the magic happened. And I realized that I had power that had personal power in that sense. And it's a skill that I have is that I can inspire people and that I've been successful enrolling people throughout all these years, so it's actually quite a handy skill in my job.
Darius Norell
Amazing again, this this feels so, so rich, so many threads to pull it. So powerful experience one that was meaningful and wipes finding your power connecting to something that was beyond you seeing the impact of that and others all really positive. I'm curious about to what extent do you think that's available? For anyone? Or many people? Maybe not anyone but many people? or to what extent do things like that also married with some skill sets or preferences that you have? what's your what's your sense on that?
Helen Guinness
That's quite a difficult question to answer. But I'll answer it in two ways. Because on the one hand, I think it's available to anyone. If you have a passion about something, if you believe in something, I mean, and we have evidence by the ton, that that works. That, you know, that passion, that commitment, that drive, that absolute belief, can change lives, for better or worse. On the other hand, I think that my background helped, I think that my values helped my family values helped. And I think my temperament too, you know, I'm a little grasp, I'm a bit of a risk taker. I'm, I'm not. I'm not a hesitant person, you know, if we've got to do it, we do it. And I sorry, I'm just sort of thinking of various examples in my history, and I think you have times when I was working with the Ministry of Defense, and you can imagine what the culture in the Ministry of Defense is. Like, and yet, I took my beliefs and my power and my transformational skills into the minister of defense. And I didn't balk at their existing hierarchical structures. Because for me, it's about the people. It's about the individual. My strapline, my company, strapline is the individual is the key. And the individual is the key to change, you know, transform one individual, you transform more than one and then you start, change begins to occur. And when I say transfer out talking brainwashing, I'm talking about transforming negative mindsets, beliefs that are obstructive or not useful, or quite simply wrong. And when I say wrong, I mean, in the sense that so many people believe they're not good enough. But that's not true. So wrong in that set.
Darius Norell
So I go to the word inaccurate, or the doesn't, it's not matched by reality. Versus Wrong, wrong. Wrong. It's got some different flavors. But yeah, I agree.
Helen Guinness
I agree with you. Your Yes, perfect, inaccurate is perfect, I'll go with that.
Darius Norell
Because I'm also, you know, just listening to I was remembering a woman I knew who was one of the most timid, unassuming women capable, but just just just very contained, and she found a cause that just went into our hearts so deeply, which was connected to Syria, and refugees and war that was on at the time, and that was, you know, our heritage was was related. And she, you know, remember speech aside, so don't understand what's happened, but I'm not afraid of speaking to anyone of that. And, you know, I will, I can now do anything. And it really lit her up. Like she was fearless and relentless in going to anyone and everyone that would, could benefit or support or whatever it might be from in this cause. And interesting. So there's a huge increase in potential if you want to put it that or realisation of power and capability, almost shocking surprise. And from what I saw, it stayed contained within that cause, right, there wasn't the kind of spillover to oh, maybe I can tap into some of this capacity in other areas that maybe aren't quite so meaningful that I could bring. It didn't spill over, it really stayed in that sort of container of the cause. Um, whereas I suppose if I reflect on my own journey, like I saw this, this power of commitment, this power of Integrity, and then just got really curious to like, oh, well, what would that mean to have my whole life like that? Or what? How would that transfer? Or what does that mean about other areas that maybe I'm given enough thought to? I haven't really. So for me, not saying that's better. But for me, it led to a, I want to think about everything, and am I really committed to this or not. And if I'm not, I'm just kind of going to really push it to the side, and I'll just say no to it, then I'm gonna be left with things I'm really committed to, that. It's easy for me to have integrity. And then naturally, my performance goes up in those areas, because it's so aligned. And all everything you've talked about when being connected to our power comes out in a very natural and natural way.
Helen Guinness
Yes, in the sense, I think that it's more spontaneous. I do talk a lot about commitment. In more general terms, though, when people say, for instance, they complain that such and such isn't happening or such and such doesn't show up in their lives or so and so is this sort of, you know, the kind of thing that you hear in your work, I dare say. And I've often said to people, it depends what you're committed to, because what you're committed to is what's going to show up in your life. If you're committed to being on time, you'll be on time. You know, if you're committed to chaos, you will have chaos. And people, people don't distinguish that notion of where your commitment lies, your energy goes, and therefore that's what's going to show up. Yeah. And, of course, you know, if you're not committed, then you're committed to being not committed. And then that's what shows up. Yeah.
Darius Norell
And a lot of people particularly, I'm going to be good to get your take. But from my experience, a lot of people are unsure about their commitment, particularly, you know, particularly early on in their careers, I should maybe maybe later on as well. But let's, let's stay with that group of people that are leaving school University, coming out of education, or maybe early on in their careers. There, I don't know if there's a crisis of commitment, or that's too strong a word, but I see it a lot of people, either not even knowing what it means to be committed, or sort of having a sense of it, or seeing other people that are just not finding and being able to get in touch with their own. Is that something you saw or see?
Helen Guinness
Absolutely, yes. I think that people do not understand commitment. They are afraid of expressing their own commitment. I mean, look at the legacy, you know, eating great at the moment. They're afraid of stepping out, they don't want to look different, you know, not putting your head above the parapet, all that sort of thing. But I think there is a fear and I think that there is there isn't an encouragement to find something that you're committed to, and work with it, there doesn't seem to me to be much encouragement to identify your life purpose, and connect that with the greater good of humanity. Or for humanity, I'd say it's one of these, I use Japanese philosophy quite a lot. And in Japan, you know, your life purpose must must include a commitment to the betterment of humanity, otherwise, it's not valid as a purpose. And I coach people a lot, a lot. A lot of people at the moment want to change their careers. It's quite remarkable how many people want to change their careers. And I sort of wonder why. multiple reasons, I'd say, But alright, so what do you want to do to earn more money? Okay, why? Then, you take that conversation further and then you get into the wall, what are you committed to? What's most important to you? What's vital, as far as you're concerned, what's essential? What's going to make your life meaningful? And in the end, everybody wants to make a difference in one form or another
You know, we don't want to get into our boxes and have our epitopes be. This one didn't make a difference.
Darius Norell
But I'm curious about something you said, which was, and I don't know if it was sort of offhand off the cuff remark of like, oh, I want to earn more money like is that because at this particular moment in time, there's so in a lot of talk about people leaving jobs, but I had sent them money was kind of the driver. That was much more maybe around the conditions balanced life meaning, so is that your you're seeing that money is up the list?
Helen Guinness
No, not necessarily. Rather, less so than it used to be actually. I think I just used it as a random example. Okay. Because when people do say they want to earn more money, I do ask them why. Yeah. I mean, I think that people are lost. I think people are confused, they are frustrated. Because they're confused. I think people are lost, which causes stress. I think people have lost their watch, we say to them, momentum direction. And that's what I experienced more than anything. Is that loss of direction, that loss of structure? The loss of framework, the loss of discipline? I mean, there are all kinds of things, or it might never even have existed. The discipline and common sense, you know, gone out the window, as far as I'm concerned.
Darius Norell
I guess, I think it's I think it's also I mean, yeah, not to not to, say let people off the hook. I might take as difficult conditions out there. Right, in the sense of, if I look to the world, or what or maybe even that i Where do I look to get us there, right. So to get a sense of okay, what is a sense of direction? I think it's? I think so do you need to do that by yourself needs a relatively high degree of skill or self esteem or?
Helen Guinness
Well, I think it needs dogged determination and commitment, Darius, right. That is actually what it needs. Even if you have low self esteem, if you choose that you're going to crack it one way or another. You do. I mean, I have multiple examples of people doing that. And some of the wealthiest people in the world have absolutely no self esteem to speak of. Yeah. Is that not it? It's a different thing that's driving them. It's not self worth that drives them.
Darius Norell
Right. It's something external, that drivers creating the sense of worthlessness. Right? Trying to try to
Helen Guinness
Well, yeah, yeah, if you want to put it that way, I was sort of allowing them an inch at least.
Darius Norell
Let's come back to integrity, because you were talked about how sort of fundamental that is for you, what would be your definition of integrity? How would you how would you language it,
Helen Guinness
My definition of integrity is wholeness. So we're talking about an integrated human being like a jigsaw puzzle, the pieces all need to fit in the right places, and then you have the whole picture. If there are pieces missing, or you put the wrong shape in the wrong, you know, in the wrong place. It's not going to work. And so for me integrity is about the integrated whole so that everything fits together is consistent. And functions consistently, which is why walking my talk is so important to me. Because if I don't do that my integrity is out. Yeah. You know, then there's an element of hypocrisy that comes into it, and so on, so forth. So, so that's what integrity is for me. And a lot of the requests for instance, that I see today for coaching is for spirituality. And that's it. pieces missing for a lot of people. So find finding whatever that is, is going to help people to find their own integrity. And I say their own integrity, because it's not, there isn't a recipe.
Darius Norell
So each puzzle that we use keep going with that analogy is different or specific to that person.
Helen Guinness
So finding their own person, yes. You could liken it to a Rubik's Cube, for instance, if you like it, you know, you might get three of the sides fitting, and then the fourth one, you know, doesn't and then you move the fourth one, and all the rest goes out of kilter. This is how, how do you get that to actually function as a whole?
Darius Norell
Yeah. And so one of the one of the groups of people, this was probably 1015, maybe 10 years ago, we were working on this topic of integrity. And we asked them to come and do a presentation on it. And they came up, they coined the phrase of integrity and our integrity, as in when you're out of integrity. That was their little catchphrase, right? So I'm, I'd love to learn when you see and notice, Oh, I'm getting out of integrity here. Right, which I'm assuming, or asserting is a fundamental part of the process of being committed to integrity is noticing when you get out or it's not. Like, what, what? What happens for you? That's helpful. And what do you also? I mean, and I'm happy to talk about my own, like, what do you see that then gets in the way of getting back into integrity? Or that can?
Helen Guinness
Well, I sometimes notice myself making a suggestion to someone and then thinking mind and actually do that? Now, let me put a caveat on that. Because I often make suggestions, if I asked to do so. And I will suggest different things to different people. Because it depends on the person, some things work for some people, some things are off. So let's just set that aside. But when I hear myself say something and think yes, but you don't practice it, or you haven't done that for a while, or hang on a minute, is that really what you know, then I catch myself out. Which is always a good thing. Yeah. Where I fall short is in the same way that every human being does, you know, it is just my humanity. I'm more disciplined on some days than I am on others, for instance, I can trip over the same stones in the road as anyone else. What perhaps I do have is the skills, ability and experience to get over these things much more quickly than I would have done when I was younger. And I've done a huge amount of work on myself. I mean, you, you know, you can't in my book anyway, you can't do the sort of work that I do not have your own experience of that work to bring to the mix. Because that builds empathy, it builds relationships, creates trust, it's, you know, it's all of those elements.
Darius Norell
And hearing you talk about it, there's a least for me a sense of low I say lightness, which I'm interested in, in having given the water to you. Not getting into sort of heavy judgment of oh my gosh, I didn't do what I said that's a disaster. And now I'm going on a downward spiral. And some of what you'll speak to is actually the skill of recognizing, adjusting, maybe reevaluating if it is this something that isn't, you know, like seems like I keep doing this, this for me that would one thing is like, sort of having a statement of what I'm saying is important. I'm doing this other thing, maybe I just need to change the statement, right? Like just let go of actually this isn't this. What am I actually prepared and willing and able to do?
Helen Guinness
You know, yeah, precisely. And along the way, you know, you might actually trip over something that you've held as a belief up until now, and then suddenly something works, I don't believe that now doesn't make sense. And let go of that. So it can shift. I can shift my own staff, if I may put it that way in the process of working with other people.
Darius Norell
Are you able to give an example and don't? If you can't, it's fine. And I'm sure it is just to land it in a specific, is there an example that comes to mind that you could, you could share?
Helen Guinness
Um, let's think, oh, gosh, there's so many probably an example of me tripping myself up, is that
Darius Norell
maybe a belief that you've let go off like that's, to me, that's always an interesting kind of like, Oh, I thought this about myself or about well, and I've come to see actually that's no longer serving or no longer needed or wasn't I wasn't, I didn't know just kind of
Helen Guinness
okay. Yeah, I mean, I think there are, there are multiple things and one of the things that saddens me is the addiction to the media that we have today that we've been poisoned by the media, frankly, I, I am not bothered. Whether people like me or not, really doesn't bother me at all. I am not obsessed with how I look or, you know, all that stuff. As long as I look respectable. You know, I don't have the body insecurity that I used to have when I was younger. I don't expend energy on worrying whether things are gonna turn out or not, or who cares about what or I've stopped being a people pleaser.
Darius Norell
We just jumped on that, because it seems so huge, right? For so many people, I'm gonna put myself in that bracket in different ways, right. But just, that's such a, feels like such a nice and you've done a lot of work. And it feels like such a huge one that can be so deep, that stays with people, maybe their whole lives of I can't say no, I don't want to do that. I don't have ups and downs of living someone else's life almost by trying to, you know, not upset or or please other people. What, what's helped you shift that or move from being a people pleaser to?
Helen Guinness
Well, it's probably a mixture of things. But I mean, first of all, if you say yes, all the time, you, you know, you screw yourself, as you get exhausted, you can't actually deliver. And it, it puts you on the spectrum of needing to please and fearing rejection. And inevitably, because you can't please everybody all the time you get rejected. And so you get to be right about, you know, your own negative self talk, and so on and so forth. And I came, I came to a place, I suppose, where I realized that saying no, was not a painful business at all. And that no is the whole sentence. You don't have to make excuses or explanations, or there's just no. I mean, there's a whole life history behind this Johnston Darice, which we don't have time to talk about. But it's, it's, it's, it's linked, again, to how much energy I want to put into these things. And I don't want and have not got the kind of energy that I used to have to invest in pleasing people. Like I said, You don't like me, that's fine, go find somebody else. Or not. And I don't I don't mean to sound arrogant and saying that I what I mean, is that, it, it's not going to stop me. I'm just gonna go on to the next person, and the next one and the next one. Because I know that there are people I don't like. And so it's perfectly normal and logical that people won't like me. So why worry about it? It serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever, no positive purpose. It just gets in the way. And, you know, hanging on to the past. I mean, you know, I've been married three times, for goodness sake. Which tells you something about people pleasing. And so what, so what, you know, they can all good luck to them. It's of no interest to me to please in that sense. Now, I think it's important to say that I do make promises I deliver on my promises. And that if I say I'm going to do something, I'll do it. And that obviously, well, maybe not so obviously, but working with clients, I find ways that are gonna work for them. So I'm using them in that sense, if you will, but it's not a need of my own time fulfilling. It's looking at what works for them, what they need, and how I can make that work for them. Does that distinguish it? Does that make sense?
Darius Norell
Well, let me let me add a distinction because I think I think it's important I get there is a distinction. I see it as if we talk about ultimately, people pleasing as just being automatic behavior, right? Like, it's like any situation, basically, I want to please them, you know, and what is what I hear you saying is, well, there are certain situations, I mean, deliberately saying, Yeah, I want to engage in this relationship or this work, obviously, to provide a service and keep a commitment and keep a promise. And I mean, I don't really call that pleasing someone, I just think, you know, but if it's in that same domain of that, then I'm in a relationship which I've chosen to be in for a particular purpose, then yes, I want to make sure I'm doing that. Well. That's what I'm hearing.
Helen Guinness
Yes. I mean, I take great joy in pleasing people, by the way. You know, I'm very, I'm very particular about what presence I buy for people, spending time with people, keeping in contact with people. I do. I like giving people pleasure, I'm naturally very generous. But in terms of it being said, I'm the pleasing people thing that you have and it's your need. You know, you have an investment for yourself in that. So that's when it doesn't work.
Darius Norell
Yeah. And if it's with everyone, right, and it's then out of control, and then you're spending time worrying about it? Like, oh, my gosh, do I upset that person? What if I say no to that, but they're going like, you know, you're living
Helen Guinness
And people become completely exhausted with it. Um, you know, at the moment, I'm coaching someone who is just beginning to recognize the extent of their people pleasing addiction, and he's, it's sort of pleasing and rescuing thing going on. absolutely knackered in every sense. Well, you can't go on like that. In the end, you need to look after yourself. There isn't anybody else who's going to do that for you. And one of my other values is responsibility, taking responsibility. Once you take responsibility for something, it frees you up because it liberates you from that endless self fulfilling prophecy cycle of guilt and this and that and the regret and and I can't be doing that. And it's so it's kind of a similar thing, once you take responsibility for yourself then pleasing others is not. It's not in that game.
Darius Norell
Right. It's just yeah, just falls away as like, this is no, we did necessary. It's not. Yeah, I see it kind of in me. It doesn't feel like a big part of me, but I see it come up in me sometimes. And it's, it's, I've actually, at the moment, I'm paying the price. I've said yes to something that was a no that I Oh, well. You know, they'd like me and I, you know, even Yeah, I can talk myself into something that I knew was a no, no, I'm doing the work. Like, every time I just like, I should have said no, you know, I should just you know, next time we're not saying you know, so I feel like there's clarity building to just not fall into the trap. And I realize it's a bit of a resort or blind spot that I can sort of know is happening. But yeah, there's not enough catching it and not enough pointing until
Helen Guinness
Yeah, it's finding the trigger. It's just fun, you know, that that will trigger that button that gets pressed and away we go.
Darius Norell
Yeah,well, for me, it's kind of some version of like, tariffs, you're the only one that I think can do this, like some some, like, oh, you really need me and like, even though I'm like, No, I'm a no for that work. And I don't want it it's not it's not the right fit, you know, I get seduced into that or kind of, like, I don't want to say no, I don't want to let them down if they think that you know, so that's,
Helen Guinness
I think being needed is similar, but not quite the same. And, you know, so many people want to be needed because that's where they find their identity. In being needed. And of course it's a false identity. So that becomes dependent on someone else, right? I mean, again, well interdependence is fine. But being dependent is a whole other story. And my father brought me up to be independent, fiercely independent. And I think that has something to do with it. I didn't have much choice in the matter.
Darius Norell
But back to the fierce word, I'm going to stand by that this was a good capture. I do want to come back to something else you said which I loved, which is known as a whole sentence. Yeah, that feels like an hour's conversation right there. Tom, tell me more about no is the whole sentence.
Helen Guinness
Okay, so we might be treading on. I don't know, slightly different ground here. Women in particular, have been brought up to please men,certainly my generation and even younger. And in many other cultures also that still persist. So saying no, is not an option, which means that we allow ourselves to be abused, violated, taken advantage of, or pushed around whatever expression you want to use. Some abuse comes in this size as well as this side, you understand? So we are not habituated to saying No, on the contrary, on the contrary, so I think it's partly a cultural thing. And what we are, but what we have learned to do this is learned behavior is to find excuses and reasons why not to do something, whilst not saying no. Well, I'm, you know, or I'm, well, you know, maybe, or might, you know, that thing, I mean, when women often tend to go around the mulberry bush 20 times before getting to the point, which frustrates the hell out of men. But anyway. That's something I also teach cross gender communication. So it's, it's partly that it's partly that. So that's linked to people pleasing, isn't it? That then links into fear of rejection? If I don't, if I don't agree with this, I'm going to be rejected, then I might be on my own, then I don't know how I'm going to manage and all the baggage around it. And you see, no is no. Every single human being on the planet is free to say no, without justifying the No. Because we're going to talk about freedom. We're going to talk about freedom of speech and being a free spirit, then no, is no. There isn't anything else to say around that. I mean, if you want to, you can say no, I don't want to or no, this doesn't work for me or No, it doesn't agree. And there are times, of course, when I do, however, know, is a whole sentence. So if you're going to come at me with something I don't want? And I say no. That's all I need to say, should be all I need to say for you not for you to take notice and for you not to pursue that particular action activity, whatever. Right?
Darius Norell
So it can't Yeah, so there's kind of lots of ground. I know, it sort of feels a little bit delicate territory, maybe in some ways, I could imagine people with different experiences, kind of maybe feeling you know, reacting in some way. So just acknowledge that and that's fine. What I what I you know, that that, that no candy, right? And in the sense of I'm always interested in that part of me that wants to justify, right. Like I can say no, and then oh, well, maybe I should give a reason for why that would. And it's not necessarily exactly as you said, it's not necessary, not required. But I was running an email this morning where exactly that thing came up. And I had noticed that urge to explain myself but no, I'm not able to do that, like it was a request for something. And I noticed an urge to explain why I couldn't. And thankfully I just didn't put that in. I'm just like, No, no, I wasn't totally needed. It's not even asked for.
Helen Guinness
Here's what's interesting Darius: explaining and making excuses weakens the no. It takes the power out of the No. No, it's just no. You can say it in a number of different ways. You can put all sorts of different tones of voice on it. But it's a no. Yeah. And by the way, I think that you know, a lot of men in business in organizations are saying yes. Because they're afraid of being rejected, losing their jobs, losing face, losing reputation. I mean, whatever it is, there's far too much Yes going on. That isn't being checked.
Darius Norell
Yeah.
Helen Guinness
But that's about you know, that's the interesting thing about making excuses or rationalizing something in that sense, you know, reasoning it is that it actually weakens the impact, just as if you say yes, it's also a whole sentence.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Yeah. I feel I also want to say that there may be situations that someone's in where you where you may say no, and it may be a strong No, and so on, still may, you know, it may be the power most powerful place that you've got to go to, it might be the clearest No, there is and someone still may or may either attempt to or actually violate that right depending on the conditions. Oh, yeah, definitely. And what you're doing is making it as clear as possible like this, you know, I am not complicit in this act whatever you're now doing like I've been as clear and as strong and that's creating the best conditions for that person at least to realize reflect hopefully stop and they may still do what they're doing in whatever whatever the situation is. So just what I wanted to name that.
Helen Guinness
Yeah, I mean, I have an example of that of a board of four people, three of whom wanted to go in a particular direction, one of whom knew it was wrong in the legal things okay. So I do mean right and wrong here as opposed to inaccurate and held out and just said no, I'm not signing up to that and consistently said that and it went on record and they managed to find a way of removing him from the board the other three is they will rue the day is all I can tell you but it's it there is an example where the no became an obstruction so it was quite simply removed. Yeah. That's something we have to live with. It's because every action has consequences.
Darius Norell
I want to give you an example that I don't know why this keeps in mind. I haven't thought about this for years - the most ridiculous yes that I gave to something that was a clear No, which was I went to a new school. And this was about 11 years old, 10 or 11. And I was just on that kind of Junior School Senior School sort of boundary anyway, in this new school they decided that I shouldn't be in the senior school even though I really my age wise I was in the junior school so I got put in the senior school and so and somehow ended up in a class with the school bully and he took greater front the fact that I was you know, kind of year or two ahead or whatever in that situation. And he came up to me after class and said do you want to fight now? I'd never been in and I wasn't any by any means strong or really even violent in that way. I was just wasn't it just wasn't a part of my being but I took it as like Oh, would you like to have tea with me? Like I thought it was rude to say no. And I literally said oh, is it just you like or was it because he had to meet with him? He said yeah, just me. Is it okay what time you know what time would you like to? Well, they turned up in this fight right? I was totally ill prepared for and he brought a whole load of supporters and and I got I got a beat and I was a bit strong but I got I got punched in the face fell down well surprised that you didn't run off like like he was scared I was gonna do something I had no capacity at all. But it was just the most ridiculous thing to say yes to, like there was no upside other than I don't you know, it just seemed like a polite thing to do.
Helen Guinness
That's really interesting. So did he leave you alone after that?
Darius Norell
Yes,
Helen Guinness
there you go. There you go. You see, you didn't run away from it. Had you said no, that would have goaded him. Hmm. That would have been the hook for him. But because you said yes. And then he laid you out. That's like, well, job done. Right. Move on. Not an exciting opponent
Darius Norell
It could be. I've also, just again, for transparency, I think it did get escalated. And I ended up leaving the school pretty shortly. Maybe a few months later. But, but I don't want to take away from your point sometimes, like when we wasn't pleasant experience, maybe that was like, yeah, exactly. Like there's nothing here to play with, you know, well, not as a stress. But
Helen Guinness
your response. Your response was fearless. Yeah. And fear is a forum people can smell. You know? Yeah, become addicted.
Darius Norell
That's interesting. And even turning up for the fight, which was a ridiculous thing to do, I guess, shows some degree of fearlessness of like, you got to do or, you know, how does this work? You could leave it at courage or stupidity, but the naivety of like, oh, what's gonna happen next? Like, how does this work? You know, I hadn't thought it through at all. Who's bringing the sandwiches? Exactly? When did we get to have a sandwich? Where are the doughnuts? Anything we haven't covered that you think would be interesting, useful or that you'd want to talk about?
Helen Guinness
Um, well, I think courage is a very important piece. And I think that, for the most part, people don't realize how courageous they actually are. Getting out of bed in the morning is courageous. That's a brave thing to do in this world. It's, you know, having the courage to face your demons, whatever they might be. Because most of us have more courage than we think we have. And we don't recognise it because of the culture around the word courage. sort of goes with mythologies, and stories and bravery and all those sorts of things. But actually, we all have courage. And I don't think there's enough focus on it as an acknowledgement and an appreciation of people's daily lives. Really. When you think of the moments in your life, when you've needed courage, like your first day at school, or I don't know, whatever it might be. We display courage quite frequently, and it's never acknowledged. It takes courage to cross a car park in the dark at night.
Darius Norell
Yeah, and I love to kind of, you know, just facing tomorrow's can take courage depending on my situation, being unemployed for a long period of time, like tickets, it's a lot. It's a lot to be with, or not, you know, talking about people who have lost sense of direction, that's a lot to be with. And that I love, I love the etymology of courage. Right? So the heart, right, and we all we all have heart. So that capacity for the connection of courage, meaning heart, right, literally the definition and that we all have heart and that and the capacity of our hearts to carry and be with so much more than we imagined. And that we all need that then we recognize it's already carried out already carrying so much, and how amazing that is and how grateful and appreciative we can be and the capacity to hold more and the capacity for our hearts to be free. Right, which is maybe a link back to integrity but around Yeah, making choices that are aligned that our hearts are, you know, leap up ly pop out and and joyful. So there's a lot, so I'm really grateful you brought courage in as a Yeah, an element in our conversation.
Helen Guinness
Well, I think you know, I mean, just aging takes courage. I honestly, you know, facing the downhill slope. We're not going uphill anymore. And courage to accept the way things are the way life is. There are things we can change. There are other things we can't. So it's, I just think it's an undervalued part of our lives. Thank you. My pleasure.
Darius Norell
I've enjoyed speaking. How's it been for you?
Helen Guinness
Wonderful, love it. Bring it on. Let's do it again. Great. I love it. I just love it. I love discussing ideas, notions, I love talking about my work. And I love hearing other people's views and opinions and ideas.
Darius Norell
Thank you. Well, thank you for taking the time to do and I look forward to our next conversation.
Helen Guinness
It's been a huge pleasure. Thank you.
Darius Norell
Thanks, Helen.
Outro
Darius Norell
Okay, curious what you made of that conversation, really felt Helens energy, passion, we talked about commitment, integrity, coming through. And just really, really love that she bought encouraged at the end, that that heartfulness feels such an important quality that we don't maybe recognize so much in ourselves and each other. That really is at the core of our humanity in connection with each other. So that's what I'm left with. As I reflect on our conversation, just the quality of heart that I bring to this work, that you bring to your work, to yourself, your being. I’d love to hear any thoughts you're having, having listened to that. See you on the next one.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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