#4. Confidence - People and Their Brilliance
“This is the beautiful gift that you can give yourself…”
The team joins Darius in the studio after a training session that didn't go to plan. Each has been tasked to bring in something to discuss...but are they all asking the same question? There’s a discussion around confidence, having clarity in our work and relationships, what happens when we inquire into the impact of the work we are doing, and how to get completely free and fully confident in all that we do. This inquiry gets to the heart of the work we explore on the podcast, and the practice of finding out what’s really going on is such a powerful one.
Listen to full episode :
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This episode came about after one of our Radical Employability Training sessions. If you’d like to learn more about Radical Employability, or have us deliver some training to your team, you can contact us here.
Casey is currently working in digital marketing and is due to graduate from the Kickstart scheme in May. You can connect with her on LinkedIn @Casey White.
Ciaran worked as a Recruitment Administrator before graduating from the Kickstart Scheme. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @Ciaran Keogh.
Henry is currently working in digital marketing and is due to graduate from the Kickstart Scheme. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @Henry Dewar.
Todd worked as a Training Administrator before graduating from the Kickstart Scheme. You can connect with him on LinkedIn @Todd Wheatland.
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Darius Norell
So welcome everyone to this experimental edition of What's Your Work, we're doing a group version, which we haven't done before. We've got Henry joining via zoom. So we're gonna see how it all goes.
So let's start off by just going round. Very quick introduction, just names. And anything else you want to say. 30 seconds max. And then we'll dive into some conversation. Let's go round, Todd, do you want to kick us off?
Todd Wheatland
Todd, I'm an admin assistant with People and Their Brilliance.
Darius Norell
Harry.
Harry McMullen
Hey, yeah, I'm the producer of this podcast, and anyone listening will have heard me before on the podcast. If you're enjoying this so far. We've also got a newsletter, and I write the newsletter as well. I'm a content creator for People and Their Brilliance.
Darius Norell
Thank you, Casey.
Casey White
Casey, and I've just started as a digital marketing specialist at People and Their Brilliance.
Darius Norell
Lovely. Thank you.
Ciaran Keogh
Hi, there. I'm Ciaran. I'm a recruitment administrator here with the team. I've been here for about six months now. And this is my first podcast session.
Darius Norell
Lovely. And Henry.
Henry Dewar
Yeah, I'm Henry. I do digital marketing for People and their Brilliance. And I've been here for about a month now.
Darius Norell
Great. And I guess for context, you're all I would say at the early part of your careers, would that be a sort of way of saying it? For some of you, who come through the kickstart scheme, sort of that's how I've gotten connected with you and how you're here. And so we're going to have a conversation about what would be useful to you to cover in terms of thinking about your work and life. And I asked you to come up with some questions or topics, to say, Okay, if we can spend an hour together, what would be the most useful thing that we could talk about that would be of benefit for you, that you've got energy around? And you've done that, and I've kind of received what you've got. And I can't tell you how powerful it is to have received what you've said. It's really, yeah, it makes a massive difference energetically to have a request from you of, of, hey, this is what's important. So I asked you to do these questions, because this came off the back of a session we were going to do. And that was - I wasn't feeling any energy from you of like - "well, I don't know what we want really", is the kind of thing I discovered. There's this like consumer mindset of well, what have you got? I'll take that. Or the other side? If I do, I don't. Whereas now I feel that we're in a totally different relationship because you've done the work of, hey, this is what would be meaningful to me. And that gives me an entry point and a platform that's really powerful to then work with you. So I'm curious, how was it to even come up with these questions? How was that process of doing that work for you? Any comments on that?
Todd Wheatland
I kind of forgot to do so. Got a reminder to do it. But yeah, it was fairly easy to kind of come up with what I could bring to this meeting.
Darius Norell
Okay, so the forgetting to do it. What does that tell us? Do you think?
Todd Wheatland
Maybe I'm not too engaged, as you probably want me to be?
Darius Norell
Okay, and then letting go of what I would want. What about for you?
Todd Wheatland
I just sort of forgot about the demand because it was over the weekend. And then I just didn't come back until Monday.
Darius Norell
Yeah. And so so. So I love that you've gone to engagement. So maybe you're not as engaged as you could be. And then you framed it as maybe as engaged as I would like you to be. Yeah. And I'm curious, how is it compared to how you would like to be?
Todd Wheatland
I think is like fun to do. But like it's not something I'm desperate to do, I guess.
Darius Norell
Okay. Lovely. Thank you. Again, who wants to go next?Thank you.
Casey White
Yeah, I found it quite difficult actually, to sort of think of, you know, topics. And I just sort of decided on one, but I felt like maybe there's other things, but you can't like think for some reason.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Because it's not easy. And most of the time, it's not what we're doing. Right. So although I was a little bit tough with you, I think all of you are saying look, this is what your work is. Right? So if we go back to the title of the podcast, what's your work? Your first work is to figure out what's your question? What is it that I actually want to know, need to know? Don't know? That someone - me, whoever - can then interact with you around. And I'm going to suggest that most people haven't done that work. So they're just going through life not really even thinking about what where am I trying to get to? And what would be useful and what's in the way and all the rest of it. So I love what you said, Casey, this is like, yeah, and what you've come up with, I think is fantastic. So we'll, we'll come into that in a moment. Who else would like to go?
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I think I had a similar experience of going over, there's suddenly all these things that I could raise. And I think it's, I felt like for me, oh, that's maybe a testament to how little time I spend in the question that when I get asked, it's like, oh, actually, there's all this pent up stuff that maybe is somewhere in my mind that I'm not giving my energy to ever. It's just sort of sitting there unexpressed. And so then I narrowed it down to okay, what's maybe the most important thing I could do? We've only got an hour. And it's not just me, and all that kind of stuff. But I could use that time to do this. And this and this. I'm labouring the point now, you know what I mean? Like, it was a reminder for me that oh, there's so much to this work still to do.
Darius Norell
Yep. And that's the beauty of it, to me is like this, we can go on forever doing this right and into finding the right relationship with it. And what's most fruitful to explore at any particular time? Yeah, Henry, how about for you?
Henry Dewar
Yeah. For me, coming up with a question. I sort of had a general sort of feeling or something I wanted to express as a struggle with the wording. And, yeah, it's quite hard to think of something that's sort of irrelevant. Because yeah, there were a few things I was thinking about, but I was not too sure if it was sort of like, maybe too, too personal, even though I think it does have a lot to do with sort of work life.
Darius Norell
Yeah. And so what I'm curious when we get into looking at your question, let's explore it a bit further. Because it was, I read what you wrote, and I, I didn't come away with clarity around. Okay, what what exactly you are asking? And that might be my reading or it sounds like also for you, it was kind of like how do I actually capture what I want to ask? So we can explore that in a little bit. Ciaran.
Ciaran Keogh
Yeah. Only got two things to say. I think, first is that it was quite easy to forget or put it at the back of your mind just because of the nature of the work we do. And I think maybe the briefness of the last session we did. I'm, I'm glad you guys put that reminder in. I think once I found something, I want to talk about something that was very, really spoke to me, it was very specific to me. And I just wanted to put it out there if anyone else felt the same.
Darius Norell
Well, let's, let's check in. I don't know. Have you seen what you've each come up with yet or not? I don't know if you shared that. No. So I'm going to read what you wrote. If that's okay. And then we'll feel free to refine if you've got a different different and Henry I'm going to put yours last. Just to just to or maybe you've not read yours outright the second. So Todd, I got from you to be more confident in what I'm doing day to day. That still?
Todd Wheatland
Yeah.
Darius Norell
Great. Casey, goal setting, how to put a plan of action in place and how to recognise progress.
Casey White
Yeah.
Darius Norell
That's still feeling important to you. Lovely. Harry being a self starter, particularly overcoming the feeling that if I can't do it perfectly, guarantee it will be a complete success. I won't bother trying to do it at all.
Harry McMullen
Yeah.
Darius Norell
Still alive for you. And Ciaran, so reflecting on the work you've done, articulating what you've achieved, what difference you've made, what new things you've learned, sometimes find it difficult to summarise previous work I've done in a compelling way. This also ties into energy motivation, and for being confident you've made a positive change and impact in your work. Not just for customers, but for yourself. Yep, so that's still fitting. Yeah, thanks. So yeah, great. So Henry, appreciate having read yours out yet. I'm going to come to you in a moment. Anything you notice in terms of themes or connections between what you've each written
Harry McMullen
I didn't get a strong sense from any of them that "I'm quite happy where I am right now." Everyone was bringing like there's something, something I'm trying to get to.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so something meaningful there. Yeah. What else?
Casey White
I think just like a general sense of like uncertainty. Yeah. So
Darius Norell
Yeah, lovely. So this theme, I mean, to me, what came out was this theme of confidence. In a way, I felt like it was the same question last four or five different ways. You very directly, hey, I want to feel more confident, really straight. Casey, I'm interpreting all that uncertainty of like, Well, how am I actually doing, as I want to feel more confident about progress I'm making Harry, I interpret yours a little bit, this way of kind of, I want to get it right and do it really well. And I want to feel confident in that and not make a mistake. Or maybe there's another dimension of I noticed that I just give up or I just don't even try, because I want to fail. But for me, that's still, you know, a different angle into the same topic. And Ciaran, likewise, you know, how do I summarise previous work? I've learned a compelling way. Bringing energy for being confident, you've made a positive change and impact in your work. So that is what I'm doing making a difference. I want to feel confident about that. So am I does that resonate? If I say confidence is the theme of all I don't lose the richness of your different questions, because I think it's lovely ways of approaching it. But it struck me there's, there's a lot of congruence there. That's of some help. And then Henry if it's okay to come to your question? Yeah, so how to think about the psychological aspect of work life balance, when a lot of what we do, especially in training sessions is related to personal life. So I was curious about two things. One, what you're really sort of pointing to, and two, that you'll see what we're doing in the training is very related to personal life as opposed to work. So happy, happy for you to pick either of those up first.
Henry Dewar
Yeah, on one hand, this over I don't even know what I'm talking about. But at the same time, I feel there is something I'm trying to express where I just struggled to put it into words.
Darius Norell
So let's talk about this last one, where they're saying you're feeling the training's related to personal life? Can you share a bit more what you meant by that? And what you mean by that?
Henry Dewar
Well, I guess a lot of it applies to life outside work. Because it has a lot to do with mindset and dealing with hindrances. And I like a lot of people in the training sessions they are this is quite like therapy or something. And I guess, sort of trying to separate things, or I don't know if that's the correct word, but just you have the sort of balance. And if that's even desirable,
Darius Norell
So what what's unclear for me, because you - when you talk about personal life, versus the training being at a personal level, right? So we're dealing yes, surely with mindsets at a deep level, which we could say is personal. And yet, I would say impacts everything that you do at work, and outside of work. How I'm hearing it is you're saying like, Oh, well, we're doing stuff. It's affecting me outside of work, but it's not impacting inside work. Does that make does it make sense?
Henry Dewar
Well, as it impacts both sides.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Cool. So what I'm gonna suggest, let's dive into the question around confidence. And then if there's something that comes up for you, as we're talking or the clarifies for you, then then jump in or say, hey, actually, this is what I'm really interested in. How's that? Yeah, cool. All right. So we're gonna dive into this topic of confidence. And honestly, I was excited about it when I when I kind of felt the request come from you. Because it really goes to the heart of what is all this training about? That we're doing. And although we don't call it confidence training, and actually that's not the knots not even the frame, I'm coming in with it as the byproduct is confidence. Right? If we follow a lot of what I think we've been talking about in what we've covered so far, we can we can touch on it in more detail. The byproduct is just now Natural confidence. That's what I'm claiming. So we can look at what's really there. So, use the word uncertainty, which I think is a lovely word. So when you when you experience uncertainty, lack of confidence, right? It's just put your minds on the unsure how to talk about this, or is what I'm doing any good? Where do you experience it in your body? Like what happens in your bodies, we just connect with that feeling of done if one thing is any good, or I've made a mistake, I can't get started. So it's just some what where do you experience it? Or how do you experience it? What do you notice happening at a physical level heat cold sensations, tingling, shortness, aching, what's what's happening?
Harry McMullen
I notice, for me, I start to breathe kind of up here and it feels quite shallow. This awful kind of cycle of, I can't get my breath. And then I'm going to the wrong place for it. And I know I've done all this actor training, but it's all actually down here and the diaphragm or whatever, but I'm in the moment I'm kind of unsure and I feel this.
Darius Norell
It's just al most like tightness or contraction around the upper levels of the chest, you notice breathing, getting some shallow or not, not full breaths. What else are you noticing?
Ciaran Keogh
I feel quite deep down. Dan sort of stomach area. feel like you've got sort of knot forming there. That I can feel so very tight. And also you just don't feel your start feeling a bit sick-
Darius Norell
Ok, I love it. And what I'm gonna ask you to do Ciararan is, I love what you said, is say it from the I rather than the you. Okay? Because I'm going to suggest I don't start feeling sick. Well, yeah. So So yeah, say it again, because it's so lovely.
Ciaran Keogh
Yeah. When I feel like that I get it down in the stomach. You get that? Or I get that kno forming in the stomach. Kinda start, you know? I don't feel well, basically.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Love it. I don't have that feeling of unease.
Ciaran Keogh
Yeah, right.
Darius Norell
It's like, Oh, I feel I love it. Thank you. This is so great. Yeah, Casey, Todd?
Todd Wheatland
It depends on the type of confidence. So if it's a person to person one, yeah, like body language might just be like, really sharp.
Darius Norell
Okay.
Todd Wheatland
And then if it's like something I've done wrong, and I need to fix it myself, it might just be like the kind of a nervous or like, body kind of thing.
Darius Norell
And how do and when you experience nerves and your body? That nervous one one?
Todd Wheatland
I think for me, it's a bit of a mental thing. Trying to work out what's happened.
Darius Norell
Okay.
Todd Wheatland
I might struggle with.
Darius Norell
And so if you look at your kind of thoughts that are coming at that moment, what sort of thoughts?
Todd Wheatland
I'm just sorta like just doubting myself? Why don't I know this kind of thing? Yeah. Have I been taught this? Is it something I'd be in trouble for? Not knowing. It's in those kind of things.
Darius Norell
And this may sound like a stupid question, but it's actually really important one. Is that a pleasant feeling or an unpleasant feeling unpleasant? Yeah.
Todd Wheatland
You don't actually know. Yeah, it doesn't? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
Darius Norell
Great. This is, you're doing fantastically? Casey.
Casey White
I definitely relate to the sort of the sense of it being deep down in my stomach and having that tension. But I think for me as well, it sort of manifests like in my head is like, a tension or like a fogginess.
Todd Wheatland
Yeah, that's why it's gonna go to
Darius Norell
Yeah, it's so annoying. You're sort of feeling doubtful, uncertain, maybe lacking capability. And then our brain stops really functioning well was like, Oh, my gosh, now I'm a bit foggy, I can't not show up. And I'm doubtful, and you know, just where we need, our brain is less available. And that's, you know, if we look at the neuroscience, that's a real thing, it's actually what's happening. When we get under some level of threat. That thinking part of our brain begins to close down. So what your reporting is accurate to the science. Henry, how about for you?
Henry Dewar
I'd say a lot of it is psychological. I would say this. Yeah. Like the sort of common things like feeling tightness in the stomach and maybe difficulty breathing properly.
Darius Norell
Okay, so. So tightness in the stomach difficulty breathing, and also thoughts that are using the psychological side. Yeah, great. So why am I kind of taking you through that sort of unpleasant experience of reconnecting with what it feels like because as I hear it, and this is this is a really important frame. What you're really asking for is to be free from those feelings and experiences. Which is a lovely, beautiful things like how can I feel at ease I give myself this gift of being at ease and at peace in this context and work. Right. And so that's the connection I make least for the type of confidence that I'm interested in, and that I think in your reaching to is, how can I feel relaxed and at ease and what I'm doing, knowing that I'm doing well, that what we're doing what's needed and unknown. Does that connect for you?
Todd Wheatland
Yeah, it definitely does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Ciaran Keogh
Yeah. Yeah, I feel that
Darius Norell
Great, Henry. Yeah. Wonderful. So this is the beautiful gift that you can give yourself. And this is going to sound maybe paradoxical, or I don't know if that's quite the right word. I'm going to show where I go to, as my start point, like the foundational point to free myself. And I'm gonna offer it to you as a way to free yourself, which is to be fully at peace, fully open to, hey, maybe what I'm doing is not valuable. Maybe what I'm doing is not warranted. And that's okay. My job is to find out. And then I can get out of the way of grouping and find a different situation where I am going to be useful and valuable. So I guess, a combination of an innate sense of I've got value, I've got something to offer that's of value. Let me find the right place people opportunity to bring that value where it's wanted and needed. And then I come with Okay, let me find out, let me be open to is what I'm doing really, really useful. Helpful. And if it's not, I would rather know than sort of hide from it and carry on and have the attention. Right, so I can have a piece of hay and easy toward you just, it's not. There's nothing I'm doing is helping. Right. So if I'm young, I think great. I'm so happy that I know that that's actually gives me peace. And I'm going to trust rather than being a burden or difficulty or trying to force myself to stay in a situation that I'm not actually wanted or not actually delivering what's needed. A great let me come out of that, and find some other place that I can be in a relationship of some kind. That is what I wanted and needed. How does that how does that land with you as a stop?
Todd Wheatland
Just sort of knowing that I guess it's a bit difficult.
Darius Norell
Great that you're, you're going to the next step, which is like okay, how do I find that out? But how does, how does the idea of it add with you?
Todd Wheatland
Yeah, that would be helpful.
Darius Norell
Okay. Do get this from other perspectives. On top of that, what else? Because I think it's quite a radical idea. And maybe, I don't know, but I'm curious how you've heard it. But Trump told me.
Ciaran Keogh
I think it's a good thing to think about and discuss. I'm just wondering how you would define it. So just, for example, how would you define what I'm doing is useful or not useful? Would that mean to me or to other people? Yeah, so
Darius Norell
let's look at if we take this frame of okay, well, what would I need to know, to feel at ease and at peace? Who do you think's important in that equation? We are, so you are right. And if you frame it really straightforwardly, if that piece is going to come from Okay, is what I'm doing wanted or needed. Is there anyone else that needs to be in that sort of conversational equation?
Let's put it this way, if there wasn't anybody else, and you're just you're determining it for yourself, okay, like it looks like I'm needed. Looks like I'm wanted. What might happen? Is that is that going to give you peace?
Casey White
I think maybe you need sort of like a, an outside perspective to sort of yeah, just see if what you think is valuable, actually is
Darius Norell
Exactly. Because I know what happened for me if I was in that situation, at some point, I'm gonna start doubting my like, what am I? Because I haven't I haven't checked it. And so what I'm talking about is an approach which is fundamentally what's more important, would I rather find out if I'm useful and valuable, unwanted Would I rather hide from that and hope? Like, I just won't, I won't be in the conversation or I won't be available for the feedback or whatever it might be. And so what I'm offering is gonna give primacy to let me find out. So I'm continually open available, looking for signals trying to interpret, okay, is what I'm is what I'm offering wanted or needed. And crucially, not just that and I'm ready to step out. Like, if I'm not wanted or needed or not useful, then then let me step out and not be hanging around here. And then there's no chance of me being in a situation where there's tension like, oh, gosh, why's Kieran come in today and say, it's great, I'm ready to, if I'm not needed, wanted, like, I'm happy not to be here. Like, okay, that gives me a whole set of other things. I've got to sort out, but I don't want to put my issues on somebody else. Does that? Does that make sense?
Ciaran Keogh
I think so. I'm just wondering, I would you put that into practice.
Darius Norell
So I gotta give you a couple examples. So so because I think what we're talking about is really profound as a way of being in the world. So I had two clients that I was working with, and on a monthly so imagine it changes like month in month out on a routine basis. And both of those businesses will were very strongly hit was almost retail woman's recruitment, the shop had to close when COVID came and looked at, we just stopped normal recruiting. So the massive hits to revenue both went into loss making situations. And my own work was impacted, right, I had all sorts of speaking engagements I was flying around, I couldn't fly anywhere, couldn't do. So I had suddenly a whole bunch of work cancelled. And so I could approach that situation with those, those two businesses that I've been working with for a number of years. With a well look, you're tied into a contract, even if you don't really need me anymore, or want me around, like, you've got to keep paying me. Right. So I could come with that or like or even just a, okay, how can I how can I keep getting paid? Right? Because I've already lost 25% of my revenue or 100% of it in March, April, whenever it is, how do I? How do I hold on to these clients? Okay, so immediately that energy is what is this creating tension? And tightness? Can you can you feel that?
Ciaran Keogh
No, right.
Darius Norell
Now, if you imagine you're the client, yeah, like and you were hiring me. Not cheap, right? You pay me every month, and suddenly your revenues having are going to zero. And you got to pay keep paying me and you don't really want to because I got the money. And I'm coming to you going "Oh, don't, well Ciaran look, we could you know, you should really keep paying me because the, you know", it's like that's gonna create tension between us. Let's doesn't create ease, right? Because the reality might be you're like "Darius, I just don't need you. I really like you, what you do is valuable, but I don't need you. Well, maybe I do need you, but I can't afford it." Right? So if I'm available and open for that conversation, then things can be very at ease. Versus like, even like you're getting paid or that it's tension, like, "Oh, you don't really want me?" Or like I'm not really doing enough to justify what I'm getting paid. Does that make sense?
Ciaran Keogh
It does. Yeah. I can think of a couple of examples where I've been in
Darius Norell
exactly some version of that yes. And it could be romantic. It could be business it could be but it's like, oh, I'm trying to hold on something when the other person should hold on to me and I don't you know, it's not. So what did I do? I went to my clients and I said to them, I want you to know you can stop paying me today like both been impacted, you can just go to zero not because I had huge reserves or kind of like it didn't make any difference like I was the loss of my income at that point in time. So it wasn't a trivial thing to say to them. But I just didn't want to have any situation where I'm creating tension for myself or for them and so I'm come really, really open what is really needed what is the most valuable useful? Is there something for me to offer at this point in time? So I'm prioritising maximising the opportunity for something to get created. And I'm really trying to be light and spacious so it's like yeah, if I'm not not needed right now, whatever again, I'm happy to step out what impact do you think that has?
Todd Wheatland
Just frees you?
Darius Norell
Yeah, free? Yeah. So I guess how will I sleep at night? Right He's very, I'm not saying always but in that situation, that's great. I've got nothing, no entanglements. No worry, no snow guys push that today, push them into that site great at a time of real need. I say, Great, let's prioritise you guess what the outcome was they both turn around said, No, we want to keep you on full pay. You're our number one. Commitment was last thing we want to cut. Wonderful. Great. So that's okay. Greg, decide here for next six months? No, okay, great. And if things change, or you've reflected on let's keep in, let's keep this under advisement, we know how long this is gonna go on, for and so on. As it happened, it's they kept it up for the whole, all through, and still clients now now two years later from that. And so this, to me, this is a really simple way of doing it. I'll give you another example. Very different context. So this was, again, working with a client get to the end of the year. And I say, okay, so give me a score. Like how, you know, I'm thinking we had a good year, we really great works and real breakthroughs real value that I could see. So I didn't feel like I needed to ask the question. Right, I had enough positive signs of hey, this is great. This is working well. But again, I want to create space for Is there anything? I haven't heard? Is there anything? I don't know? If there's something you're not telling me, I missed? Or maybe if we don't all our best work is, Am I still the right person for next year? So rather than waiting for them to things to get so bad or difficult to get looked at as we can fight now. I'm continually looking to how can I find myself? Because I don't want to be in the way so that the entry point was okay, let's let's Can you score me a nominal number scale. And in this case was three directors, they all gave me the highest possible score. So that point I go, okay, great. No, tell me what is it? I am curious, he will give me the hospital. So what is it that you're seeing that's valuable? And what they said really surprised me? was really helpful for me to understand all this, you know, to answer the question about is what is it that I'm doing that is valuable? And to your question, specifically, like, how do you put it in a compelling way? Guess what, I asked the person? What is it that you found valuable and useful, but what I've been doing, right? Because sometimes it's much easier to hear it and articulate it based on what's happening for your client or the person, you're working for your boss, whoever is, then you trying to figure it out yourself. And I can use their language and the impact it has on them. And I've used it many, many times with different clients in different situations going, Okay, this is this is a real value, I didn't realise how valuable it was, I realised I knew it was happening. I just didn't appreciate how valuable it was, until I heard it from them. Does that make sense? I'm coming specifically back to you, Karen. Because you asked that question about how do I get detailed so I can talk confidently about what I've been doing and and know that it's useful and valuable? What do you think about that as an approach?
Ciaran Keogh
Yeah, it does. And some, sometimes it can be hard to broach that question. Or even just have that kind of
Darius Norell
exact cross. So that's what I want you to name. So what's hard about it? Because I think what I'm describing what I'm describing is beautiful, like as an idea. And why do we have this thing is what's your work? Because I think it takes a lot of work to be really fully ready and available to hear he what you're doing is of no use and value to me. And to be able to hear that and go. Ah, thank you so much for telling me. So given that, like okay, what how do we go forward? Do we go forward? Right. So that's a huge piece of work to do to get to that place of spaciousness, freedom, which might talk about mobility, we're able to move okay, great. I can move. I'm not stuck in the way. So what do you what do you see as hard about it? I think you're accurate in it. What do you see as hard about having that conversation or asking that question?
Ciaran Keogh
I suppose is just that feeling of knowing what other people think about you, especially in that kind of could be a customer or client relationship could just be relationship between someone in their boss. Yeah, and sometimes hard to think about what the answers might be or what or do you even do you even want to know?
Darius Norell
Great. Exactly. Exactly.
Ciaran Keogh
Because I'm sorry. On the off chance, they give you something really negative back. Where do you take that? Where do you go from there?
Darius Norell
So this is where it comes to thank you for articulating that so beautifully. So come back to this heart of the question, would you rather know? And then I've got work to do. I got a face into something, confront "oh my gosh, that's not what I was hoping to hear, wanted to hear." But would I rather know, and then be able to do something about it, or rather not know, and stay in some level of tension of worrying, like, Am I just gonna get find out one day that actually what I've been doing is no use after a month, a year, 10 years? I mean, if what you're doing is not really valuable. When would you want to find out? So that's for all of you. When When would you rather find out? Like if imagine you're working? So you're measuring or working on a 40 year project? Or 50 year project? When would you want to find out that what you're doing is not really contributing and start right at the start? Yeah. I mean, anyone tempted to say, like on my last day, like least I'll be out of there, then. Yeah, can you maybe have some energy towards that? Right? That would be quite natural. But if you reflect, I'm thinking you'd want to know, as early as possible. What do you think Ciaran?
Ciaran Keogh
probably right at the start, like the others said. I was also thing, I was thinking, how do you actually determine usefulness? Is it?
Darius Norell
So we'd like to, so that your questions are great. And what I want I want to really shift to is, rather than rather than you trying to figure it out, particularly you're working for someone else, what you're going to get skill that as being in the question and the inquiry of what is valuable for you. Right? And so continually asking what is actually making the difference? I mean, you can offer ideas or perspectives or like, I'm thinking, is this is that right? But so rich and valuable to have been the inquiry of what's the most useful thing I can be doing? Where's the company trying to get to as the organisation trying to get to what's going to make the biggest difference? What's my part in that? How can I then check that what I'm doing is what will what I think I'm doing is actually what what's needed, right? Because that's all about being in the inquiry of how is what I'm doing fitting with what's needed and wanted and really aligned with where this project initiative company organisation is going. So rather than having to figure out the answer, what I'm suggesting you need to do is be able to be skilled at being in the question. And that means going towards it. It means asking questions, and particularly understanding where are you asking the question form from because Casey, that's okay. I'm just gonna pick people out and just just not because I'm thinking in case he needs to hear this. It's just so imagine KC system is something like that. So how am I doing? Right? I'm going to be feeling some level of like, I don't know, because he really wants to know. Could you could you I mean, I'm making it up and not having experienced that from you. But can you can you imagine that? And so that's already putting a barrier and difficulty in the way for me to answer fully. So the place that we ask from? Can you come from a place of hey, I'm really committed to doing great job here. Brilliant, that's a win, right? They're like, Oh, great, we're on the same page. We're heading to the same place you want to do great job, I want you to be doing a great job. Fantastic. That's a good place to start. Real screen, can you see that's a real place of strength and confidence. Yeah, right there. Like yeah, intention. so brilliantly, always go back to intention. If we get lost in the results, we've actually entered what my intention is this? And so given that, I'd love to hear is there anything that you can offer me that would help me get closer to fulfilling my intention? Or what do you see is in the way or here's what's in the ICU, but with then in the conversation? And the Freer you are, that's kind of the place that you're asking for, the freer you are in being ready and able to hear anything. Guess what, the more value you're gonna get in that exchange, and in all the subsequent ones. Because again, like Todd is asking me, like, maybe Todd can hear this, but I'm not sure we can hit you know, I kind of want to like, Hey, Todd, here's the biggest thing you need to get going, we got no idea that's much bigger than I thought I didn't really want to hear it. And thank you for telling me. I want to make I want to get when I dress it or when it might be, you know, I don't want to address it. That's fine also. But it also means okay, like this relationships, not gonna go somewhere because I've shared what's in the way that's totally on you or not to do anything about it. Like I don't get to decide what you change about your life or not you do. And if you don't want to, like you know what, okay, given that my biggest commitment is to be a place where I'm needed unwanted, and offer value and contribution that's clearly not in this setup as things are so sounds like it would be make sense for me to step out of this. Can we do that in a way that works for you? Alright, so that's, that's always the option is to be stepping out or it might be, oh my gosh, that's huge. And this comes back to a question you're asking here, and I'm not even sure what to do with that. Right? Would it be possible to kind of sit down and talk through a plan of okay, what would I? How would I work on that? Because it's something I'd love to work on. Because I can see it's having a big impact, I really get what you're saying. I just don't? I don't know. No one's ever said that to me before. I'm not quite sure what to do with it. Right? Because then we can be in the conversation about okay, what to change what to develop what to improve. So I feel I hope I'm not doesn't feel like I'm labouring this point, but it for me, it's so foundational to come from a place of, I would rather know, and then face into that, then not know, or avoid the conversation and be and maybe spend my whole life doing something that wasn't wanted.
And that's a big piece of work. I'm not suggesting we're gonna come out of this in 10 minutes time going, Oh, great. I'm done on that. Right? It's a continual going towards being ready for noticing your reactions. What kind of reactions are typical reactions that might come up? If someone says something to you? That's maybe hard to hear you didn't want to hear? I don't want to particularly call it negative. But it's you're feeling oh my gosh, there's a bigger gap, or I'm deficient in some way. What would be typical reactions that you might notice in yourself and when when receiving some information like that? We have that view. What what what would come up for you?
discomfort, discomfort. Yeah. What else?
Henry Dewar
Like psychological type stuff, like
Darius Norell
thoughts.
Henry Dewar
intrusive thoughts,
Darius Norell
intrusive thoughts. What might be an example of an intrusive thought?
Henry Dewar
Like negative, self talk?
Darius Norell
negative self talk, beautiful. Yeah, like, Oh, I'm no good. Harry, what about for you,
Harry McMullen
I get this thing. It's like a speaks of a thing I've questioned about giving up where I feel this kind of fake sense of ease, this false sense of ease, like, Oh, thank God, brilliant. Because I can get out of the way, I can stop pursuing this thing. And so that's really easy, right? Because I got this feedback that means I shouldn't do this. I'll spend my time doing something else. And then later, when I when I'm not explicitly thinking about it, when I'm having difficulty sleeping or practising, you know, the fictional talk show I'll be on in 10 years talking about reflecting on this. And this, and it's all trying to express this sense of this doesn't feel good. I feel I want to close this gap, or I wish this gap wasn't there. And I kid myself that, oh, well, that was a great experience, because I could just move on. But actually, that's that's just stepping away from the opportunity, stepping away from the work. And there's another voice in my head that's trying to tell me "you've done the wrong thing by giving up on this". So that's what I get like this, yeah this fake kind of numbing sense of like, "Oh, great. Cool. Thank you for your feedback. I'll move on."
Darius Norell
So as a way of avoiding facing into it repackaged as? Oh, well, if that's not, you know, it's obviously not for me, or I'm not the right person or I'm nevermind, that kind of thing?
Harry McMullen
Yeah. Yeah.
Darius Norell
Great. Yeah. Todd, what about for you?
Todd Wheatland
as a sort of, like intimidation, I guess. So it's feeling that you've done something wrong? Yeah. More greed or something? I guess. Yeah.
Darius Norell
You're really good at this, Todd. Really, I mean, honestly, it's this is not easy skill.
Todd Wheatland
That's why I scored a three.
Darius Norell
Okay, there you go. Hey, you didn't know that though. But there we go. That's great. Love it. You, for me when you're talking just really captured some deep, powerful emotion. That sense of I've done something wrong, which I think we can all relate to. Right. Like, I'm bad in some way or some not. That's how I hear it anyway. Powerful. Casey.
Casey White
Yeah, I think for me as well, it's that sort of negative self talk and just internalising what's been said and maybe sort of Yeah, trying to find like, a more negative meaning in it than there actually is, which is quite unproductive.
Darius Norell
Yeah. So there's a habit there. of okay, there's this thing has been said, and then you'll build you know, magnifying it, exaggerating it playing it over and over. Well, maybe they meant this as well or kind of, is that that? Yeah. And what would be an example of negative self talk what might be
Casey White
Yeah, like they just they don't think I'm good enough for this or like, I don't think I'm good. No, they're
Darius Norell
Also great. I mean, honestly I'm, both of you. So I feel like I'm picking up. But I'm honestly, no matter how well, you know, your ability to do this in terms of reporting and talking about it, yeah. I'm not good enough, they don't think I'm good enough. These are very deep, powerful stories. And what I'm going to say just generically, what I note and we can sort of maybe understand that, like, if I'm getting what feels like an attack or something really negative, you know, we can we can get defensive in some way, right? That's a very natural reaction, what will might what might come up for you. Ciaran?
Ciaran Keogh
I suppose it would be defensive in in some way. But it would also be questioning now, not in a sort of disbelieving or you're wrong away, but I'd be running what I've done. I'd be running that back in my mind and thinking, okay. Do they have a point? Have I done something wrong? Or are they or are they wrong? Or does it match up with my experiences? And why do I feel like that? And as it as that type of feedback sank? In, I think I'd feel more like Harry, where I wouldn't really, I wouldn't be feeling relief, I'd be feeling the opposite. I start feeling sort of worse about it over time.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Beautiful. So this is all accurate. I couldn't really relate to everything everyone's saying. What I've also noticed, and this is gonna give generic feedback if that's okay for you all. So when there are times when I'm giving feedback that I think isn't, to each in a really positive frame, of hey, I believe in you and like, here's what what, here's a step you can take to kind of go to the next level. I sense defensiveness in that, like that somehow, there's a story of like, oh, I can make that mean, I'm not good enough as I am. Right? So I can I can turn that what I consider quite a positive frame. Your mind is can turn into or be resistant to or oh my gosh, like I that's not, that's not good enough. Like I'm not good enough. So just to notice that those reactions or stories can come up even in a positive frame. Like anytime we're getting feedback, our stories can run off like oh, what are you saying? I'm not good enough? Like if we've got that as a deep question that we're with, which I think all of us have, at some level, we're wanting to know we're okay. As we get to this paradox of, okay, I'm okay as I am having peace in that. And and then there's also a, and what's the opportunity or possibility for me to grow and develop in a way that's not coming from deficiency, but it's coming from toward positive model of growing and developing. So want to take stock of where we are? Have I answered your question? Is that enough to be going on with you? Yeah, we might be fitting I got everything I need. Or as what everything I need for now. I need to make sense of what you said, Move. Try some stuff out there. Maybe. Yeah, got it. And I'm not sure what my next step is. That might be I want to clarify something in the way I want to challenge one late this is the worst hour I've spent the car on so low used to be at all, where it - where are you each at?
Todd Wheatland
We didn't cover like - the trade that you're saying is something that you feel you're getting, but you still have that sort of like lack of confidence.
Darius Norell
said again, I didn't I didn't get the trade
Todd Wheatland
of like, you're not really sure if you should be the or you're not providing the service? Yeah, well, if I feel like I am, and then I needed, but I'm still having my lack of confidence.
Darius Norell
Great. So beautiful. So remember how I say about being in the inquiry? Yeah. It just means getting more and more detailed. So in this instance, you could say to me, you could ask at a high level, hey, you know, how am I doing? And I go, or give me a score out of 5,10, whatever. And I give you eight, says you're doing great. You know you're at this that's exactly where I'd expect to be. Right. That's not enough. Right. So what do you need to do?
Todd Wheatland
Just asked more questions. Yeah.
Darius Norell
Yeah, great. Does, tell me more like what what is it you're finding that's valuable about what I'm doing? I'd love to hear you talk about that. Right? And then being open to what's the biggest opportunity that you see, like if I was gonna do something else was really valuable. What what do you see as a next step for me? Right. So can you see how that then? Yeah, really? Making sure there's nothing left unsaid? Is there anything you haven't told me about my performance that would be helpful for me to hear or good for me to know? Okay, can you can you hear? How does that feel? A lot better. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else?
Todd Wheatland
I don't think so. No, great.
Darius Norell
I'm looking forward to the questions. If you if you want, Harry
Harry McMullen
Yeah, I'm feeling a sense of disappointment. That, oh, I'm really sensing that there's a brilliant topic that there's a lot of power in what you're offering. And it feels like as quickly as it started, it's coming to an end. And I'm taking that on with Well, that's because I know I was responsible for booking the studio, it took a long time to get it all set up, I know that someone else is coming right at one o'clock, and I've got to get it off the computer in time. And so I'm just in that disappointment of, oh, I'm sensing there's an opportunity lost because of my performance as the producer this morning. Yeah. Because it because, yeah, that's a really provocative idea that you that you introduced. Brilliant. Let me ask another question. Oh, and now. Yeah.
Darius Norell
Yeah. So if I can riff off that you don't know whether this is the perfect time for this to be finishing or not. And so we can bring, you know, we can, we can have the thought. But if we, if we give it too much weight, I mean, it's definitely consideration. But if you give it too much weight without really knowing. So in these situations, I just trust like, oh, maybe, actually, what we needed some time to digest. And we can we gather in a week's time ago, okay, like, so, you know, what sense Have you made of that? Right? Because I'm feeling quite like that, like, I've given a lot of myself in this, right? So I'm not sure. I mean, I'd love to carry on, I'm not sure the quality will, I'm going to, you know, we did another hour. I don't know how good it's gonna be. So, and then we've got, you know, a health and all that, you know, so maybe this is perfect, and we don't even hold variety of perspectives way, this is the right place to. So I'm just, I'm not trying to delude myself with that. But I'm just open to the idea of okay. And given that, I don't know, I'd might as well choose a positive version of trusting this will be a lovely place to kind of pause or breathing so close. How does that sit? It's great,
Harry McMullen
Because we had a similar discussion about six months ago, about my habit. I don't know. So let's just take the worst possible version or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Interesting.
Darius Norell
Yeah. Thank you. Casey?
Casey White
Yeah, I feel like we've explored it as much as we can in the time we've had. But I think maybe just going away and having some time to, like digest everything we've discussed. It might, you know, bring up some more points that we can explore in the future. Or, you know, we might find that, you know, I'm clear. And now, where I stand with, we just don't know. So
Darius Norell
lovely. So I'd love you to do is each of you to do is go back to your questions, and connect up what we've talked about to your question. Okay. And say, Did I did I get an answer specifically to the angle I was coming from? And if you feel that, you know, and then when we check in next, let's really go okay. Yeah, here's the connections I made? Or, you know, I didn't really I couldn't, you know, I felt like there was I couldn't quite get to it. Right. So, so yeah, I'd love to do that with you, Ciaran.
Ciaran Keogh
Yeah, I feel like we've covered the main idea of basically reflecting on what what you've been doing. And getting getting to the stage where you can ask that. I think there's still a few things. At least from my, from what I was coming into this with the identical thing had been answered yet. So
Darius Norell
can you give me an example?
Ciaran Keogh
I think mostly. Basically, putting what you basically how will you describe what you've done? Describing what you've done to other people, or just to yourself?
Darius Norell
So what? So I think I'm going to claim that we did answer that, at least to some degree. So anyone, anyone, What would anyone do anything come to mind from? What we just what I shared about this? How do I talk about the impact? I've made this for myself? How do I think about it? And how do I talk about it? Is that question? Yeah, yeah. So what did I cover?
Todd Wheatland
Because you just need a bit of feedback to help you kind of sort of re realise what you've done.
Darius Norell
Yes, yes. So my head says hesitant isn't so absolutely. And what, and how do I get the feedback? By asking, and what do I ask? How have I done just? Yeah, and the value of that is what? So when I asked that question, how does that help me?
Todd Wheatland
Because you're being proactive. So it looks like you you're interested in the question.
Darius Norell
Great, and how and how does that help me in terms of answering the question
Todd Wheatland
because it kind of offers more like cool, confident way, I guess. Yeah. Quite what you said
Darius Norell
something like that. Yeah, you write in there? Who can who can add to that? Because this is exactly
Harry McMullen
when we were talking about, well, when it's only me trying to work out if what I'm doing is needed or not or valuable or not, then I don't know. And that creates this tension. And was by asking I get this feedback. And I know,
Darius Norell
yeah. And what did I describe from the story of me doing it? What? Anything come out? That was surprising?
Todd Wheatland
The way we asked may affect the way you answer the question,
Darius Norell
yes. And what did I find out? can be quite freeing, can be freeing.
Harry McMullen
Are you surprised at the answer you got? Yeah,
Darius Norell
I found out new information like oh, my gosh, I didn't realise. So I knew there was this thing happening, I had no idea how valuable it was, then it makes it very easy for me to talk about, and guess what was valuable for them. Guess what I talked about? Well, why do I talk about it so much? Because I know you had another client say, Oh, this is this is the impact of what I do. And here's why it's valuable. And guess what? Everyone's facing the same issue. But I just never described it that way before. And feel great. I want some of that to like, lovely. Okay, let's work together. Does that does that make sense?
Ciaran Keogh
think it does. And that's when to when it comes to getting that getting that feedback or getting that information is more than trout trying to relay it on to somebody else or
Darius Norell
so my, my, my practice, request for you is to ask, get the feedback and then see how it is to read that. Okay, and see what happens.
Ciaran Keogh
Just use an example. Let's say you're writing a cover letter or something, be your next job. How would you describe what you did what you did here at this company?
Darius Norell
Yeah, lovely. So your practice is to ask the question, like Todd was saying, find out what was valuable at what you were doing, and see if that makes it really easy to put in a cover letter. Okay. Love it. And then all the things you talked about, like how I'm asking where I'm asking from, really be open to the full extent of what's, what's the experience been like? Okay, all right. Sounds good. Lovely, then, Henry. I know you haven't got a question specifically around confidence. But how this been for you?
Henry Dewar
Well, I feel that the session gave me more clarity on what I was actually asking in the first place.
Darius Norell
Fantastic. What is it?
Henry Dewar
I guess it's kind of not that related to confidence and stuff. But um, it's sort of like, I feel a lot of people including myself like to have some like mental separation between work and not work like not not because we don't hate one or the other. Like, it's preferred mode of being. And a lot of things we cover in the sessions still, like blur the lines. And I feel like a lot of it sort of pushes you into maybe uncomfortable territory that you don't feel comfortable covering in sort of like a work setting.
Darius Norell
All that so articulate. I love how you put that Henry and yeah, I am feeling energised to go there. And we're at time. So let's hold that for another conversation because it's a beautiful one. So thank you for that clarity, and I'm excited about exploring that if you are wonderful.
Okay, well, that brings us to the end of this episode, or whatever it is half episode part episode of What's Your Work. Thank you everyone, loved having you. And for those of you listening, see what connections you can make. This has been a deep one, I think so. Hope there's something here of value for you. Thank you.
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